Discussion on Whether it Might be Hygienic Behavior or Small Hive Beetles

Discussion on Whether it Might be Hygienic Behavior or Small Hive Beetles

Michael Cortopassi

June 27 at 7:48am

Anyone know what this might be? Last night through the window I see some bees carrying white pupae around, which they dumped outside. I picked one up, not chalky, and had no smell at all. Then this morning I find this relatively large pile of what I'd almost describe as white casings. A few pupae in there as well. I did not see any mites on anything. We have had a couple pretty cold nights (50F). Could these be chilled brood? I see no difference in any activity inside or outside the hive, everything seems normal. Thanks.

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Katral Tobiaz Good bees will throw out sick bees, could be varroa or many other things. Give them a good checking over.

June 27 at 7:50am

Christy Hemenway Yeesh! Not sure what to think that is - that's a lot of pupae to be pulled out. Are you in a dearth? Shouldn't be chilled brood, I wouldn't think - the bees should be able to keep them warn in 50 degrees F no problem. Maybe a call to your state apiariast?

June 27 at 10:15am

Michael Cortopassi If anything they are filling up honey faster than ever. I just had the hive opened on Friday and saw nothing bad, at least that I could recognize. I have yet to see a mite, and activity seems perfectly normal. I did add a couple empty bars in the honey area at that time. Here's a video of them right now...again seems normal. I'll have to check if there's more been dropped at lunch.

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ReplyJune 27 at 11:18amEdited

Christy Hemenway Hmm. I would like to think that's hygenic behavior, but I would also be wanting somebody to stand beside the hive with me and scratch their head too... lol

June 27 at 11:17am

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Jim Benham Either 1) hygienic behaviour, ie. clearing out varroa infested larvae.
2) starvation, ie. not enough honey in hive to raise brood.

June 27 at 3:35pm

Michael Cortopassi Checked on them again at lunch, pile was the same -- saw a couple more pupae being flown away to parts unknown. Later afternoon, big orientation flight time around 3PM, as usual. Nothing out of the ordinary at all, except this. I want to chalk it up to hygienic behavior and not have to crack the hive open. Going to let it go a couple days and see. Thanks all.

ReplyJune 27 at 4:05pm

Katie Neal Sinotte Zom- bees!

🐝

😳

Only kidding. That looks odd- and interesting.

June 27 at 9:13pm

Michael Cortopassi A few this evening, not like yesterday. Will update in the morning...

ReplyJune 27 at 10:52pm

Tony Sicily Did you cull some brood cross combing?

I damaged some brood cells when straightening some cross combing, next 2-3 days they dumped some still twitching pupa and barely formed bees...See More

ReplyJune 27 at 11:56pm

Michael Cortopassi I did cut out a small piece on one bar that was bulging, but 100% sure it was nectar. Some pupae on the ground this morning, but a lot less than yesterday. Hive activity continues to be perfectly normal. I am worried about them like a pet or a child!

Other interesting observation through the window is that when a bee is carrying a piece of the pupae they are noticeably moving around a lot faster than any of the other bees on the combs/window. Like they are on a mission to get it out of the hive as fast as possible.

ReplyYesterday at 8:00am

Phil Chandler One of my hives did exactly the same thing about a month ago. All drone larvae, few mites. I suspect they were conserving resources to prevent starvation, as there was a dearth caused by unseasonably cool weather.

Michael Cortopassi Phil Chandler, I'm not sure there's a dearth here, but that's from exactly 1 month of experience. The hive has gone from 4 to 7 honey combs, and I see lot of cells filled with nectar. The white pupae I see being taken out sometimes have very recognizable eye spots, but at the stage I am seeing them I do not know from the eyes if a drone or worker. Thanks.

Reply13 hrsEdited

Phil Chandler Any mites on them? If so, it might be what is known as "hygienic behaviour": bees dealing with Varroa by forcible removal of infected pupae. Otherwise, they are probably adjusting the drone population because they simply have more than they require.

Michael Cortopassi No mites I can see. The amount being dragged out continues to decline -- this morning there were 3 pupae I could see, and a bunch of wispy 5mm long white pieces, about as thick as hair. I spoke with the person who supplied the bees to me -- when he first started, years ago, his initial colony was from a type called Minnesota hygienic. I can hope!

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Stuart Ingram Do you have a good many SUB? SHB will lay eggs in cells and when hatched they feed on the bee brood and leave the empty exoskeleton. The bees will clean the cells that have a hive beetle larvae infestation. Find the frame they are taking the brood out of. Pull out some of the brood and look for eggs 5 to 15 of them. If you see eggs or small worms I would say hive beetle infestation.
This is what the eggs will look like when you pull one from the cell...

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Stuart Ingram The pic below [upper right] shows cells that bees have opened and removed the dead bee pupa from. [Middle] shows cell that the bees opened and were removing the dead pupa from. [Bottom left] shows two cells I opened and pulled the pupa out of which were still alive but have hive beetle eggs in them.

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Stuart Ingram And this is the pile of dead brood and exoskeletons in front of my hive.

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Stuart Ingram And a close up

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Michael Cortopassi Stuart, thanks for that. When I inspected Friday, I did not see any beetles. If this was caused by an infestation, would I have likely seen at least a few beetles going about in the hive? I saw none? The removal rate definitely has slowed over the past 24 hours but it is still going on. When I have looked through the window, I generally see pupae being carried, but at least a couple times I have seen a small writhing larvae size something or other being carried as well. The colony seems strong, if it is SHB is there anything I should do other than let them take care of it?

Michael Cortopassi Cracked open the follower board tonight, looked inside with a light as much as I could. All honey combs looked good, bees active, no mature beetles that I could find. I've read up on the beetles life cycle and it seems adult beetles get into the hive, lay eggs, which turn into larvae, do the damage to the combs, then leave the hive to go into the ground and pupate. So, I'm left with these questions:

1) The hive is completely propolized except for the entrance, which nightly is a mass of bees. I don't know when the larvae would travel out the entrance down to the ground, but I've never seen a bee obviously disturbed by this?
2) I've never seen a beetle inside the hive. I have seen a couple outside, but not 100% sure they are SHB. Is this typical, i.e. not seeing them?
3) The only obvious thing that makes me think beetle now is seeing at least a couple times through the window bees carrying what seem to be small writhing larvae. I suppose those could be SHB larvae, but could they also be bee larvae, and for whatever reason they are hygienically removing them?
4) Finally, most all I've read says leave them alone if they are a strong hive, which is what I plan, unless someone has a different idea?

Stuart Ingram I plan on cracking the hive open in a couple days to do a more in depth inspection of this to confirm or not. How did you handle it? Thanks all.

Reply11 hrsEdited

Stuart Ingram The bees don't usually bother the larvae. I don't have a top bar hive but in a langstroth the bees usually corner them up in between the frame ends they also cornered them on the bottom board in the corners. You will also see them hiding in the cells. A buddy of mine has a top bar hive and they pretty much are in the same places as in my Langstroth. It could be hive beetle larvae or it could be bee larvae that their carrying out. I've never seen mine carrying hive beetle larvae out. The only bees that I have read about that will carry small hive beetle larvae is the Africanized bee. But that does not mean that your bees aren't carrying hive beetle larvae. My hive straighten the problem out in about 48 hours. I did pull the frame that I took the pictures of and froze it for 48 hours before putting it back in the hive. That was the only frame that I saw a lot of hive beetle damage on. You can put hive beetle traps into your hive if it doesn't seem that they are going to be able to handle the problem. Really you need to do an in-depth inspection in order to see if it is hive beetle problems or just them removing drone brood. Mine are now starting to remove drone brood also. I live in Middle Georgia and we are starting to go into a nectar dearth. We also have a lot of hive beetle problems at this time of year. With that being said I always have to do an in-depth inspection in order to tell which it is. The drones are not needed as much this time of year as they were earlier so the bees don't want to have to feed them so now is the time they'll start getting rid of them. You'll also see drones being dragged out of the hive and their wings being chewed on so they can't fly back up. Good luck and let us know what you find.

Michael Cortopassi I sure will. This is a great education. I love talking about bees to friends and neighbors, and I am a pretty quiet guy!

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Stuart Ingram By the way to tell if it is drone pupa look at the eyes they will meet at the back of the head.

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Stuart Ingram If it is worker bee pupae the eyes will not meet at the back of the head and will be much smaller than those on the drone.

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Michael Cortopassi The specific one I saw dragged out was a worker then.

Stuart Ingram If it is worker pupae being dragged out then I would do an in-depth inspection. Honeybees don't normally get rid of worker bee pupae unless something is wrong with them. Drones on the other hand will be carried out when they're no longer needed.

Reply10 hrsEdited

Michael Cortopassi Stuart Ingram Thanks, Stuart.

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